Curse

Dirame · May 25, 2011, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Seriously, is that it? And what effects has this update had so far?

*lemming* · May 25, 2011, 07:00 AM // 07:00

People are actually running warriors again.

We'll see if this is a lasting trend or if someone'll discover a new overpoweredly noninteractive dervish bar before the monthly.

Missing HB · May 25, 2011, 07:14 AM // 07:14

I noticed a few guilds are running warriors , but i think that's probably just test before the MaT....

I think though they should really explain on update notes that these concern GvG only , as i'm pretty sure OP wasn't referring especially to that format...
There are obvious little changes on GvG , but there isn't any single one on other formats

floor · May 25, 2011, 07:24 AM // 07:24

dervishes are still extremely functional. Unless they get made entirely useless or just deleted, there is always going to be the risk of epic dervish abuse making a return in the near future.

FoxBat · May 25, 2011, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Heart of fury has on average and at best, 2/3rds uptime, and was the key in so many popular builds. Not only the scythe DPS drops by that much, but the common adrenaline teardown frequency as well. Trying to build the adren to use your IAS, after your IAS expired, is a terrible thing, particularly when you are a "pressure" character. Just because your derv bar plays about the same except in slow motion, doesn't mean it's anything short of gimped compared to the past.

As Lemming mentioned new abusive innovations may be found, most of them will have to involve pious fury. But with the "heart" cut out of so much of the meta, it will take a little more time. Even if they do, this is not a small change.

AndrewSX · May 25, 2011, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Is a good step indeed this update, expecially for HoF and the change of condition order for Thorns.
Dunno if this will rebalance the amount of Dervs vs. Wars and Sins in lower PvP tho (aka: RA)....we can only wait and see what happen.

chullster · May 25, 2011, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

Is a good step indeed this update, expecially for HoF and the change of condition order for Thorns.
Dunno if this will rebalance the amount of Dervs vs. Wars and Sins in lower PvP tho (aka: RA)....we can only wait and see what happen.

I tried the RA bar I had before the update, the two skills nerfed being pious fury and harriers grasp. Harriers is weaker but PF is not, I still have it up 100% of the time, which I like of course

I'd still use a derv for melee over a war or sin, and war is my main profession.

Playing a derv you can ignore empathy or insidious etc, you can also still remove your own blind/cripple without taking a breath to stop hitting people, two things in RA which make it still a no-brainer on what you bring if you want to play melee.

Killed u man · May 25, 2011, 09:51 AM // 09:51

It's only a matter of time before dumb people realize a D/W with frenzy and rush (or HoF? loco rite?) is still better than just a warrior.

The many unconditional, no downside, IAS skills are definatly a problem, but they're not why dervs were so overpowered. The fact that you can paintrain shit down with twice the DPS and spiking power of a warrior was.

It's kinda sad how I keep predicting everything over and over again, so I'll do it here aswell: D/W's with frenzy is still a whole lot better than W/axe with frenzy.

Even more so: D/W with frenzy will do about 15% more damage than the old dervs (pre IAS nerf) did. At, a base armor of 70 + 10 + 12 (or 14 myst), that's still a reasonable 92 base armor on a scythe, swapping to a shield will net you around 101, completely nullyfying frenzy damage.

Obiously I'm not saying dervs won't have to cancel frenzy, just saying that dervs can "safely" (Read: almost as safe as a warrior) use frenzy without having to worry about having to cancel every millisecond.

floor · May 25, 2011, 11:31 AM // 11:31

The fact that a dervish can pump more damage over an extended period doesnt necessarily mean they are better tbh.

From my point of view as a monk, if you face a team running triple melee and using hammers (needs to be good hammer warriors and not any retard from rank 200), its actually harder to play against due to the fact you no longer just spam every prot on recharge.

My own personal opinion is that combinations of warriors and sins, as seen in old 3 melee can potentially kill a team a lot faster than dervishes because played correctly, it actually gives a lot of shutdown through kd, and monks just get stomped. Unfortunately if you dont kill fast enouogh and you use warriors, the longer the game goes on the more effective a dervish becomes due to a more sustained damage output. I'd also have to test it, but i expect dervishes pump more lord damage than hammers too if it gets to 28.

I think warriors are certainly viable now, as they cant get perma cripple linebacked 24/7 anymore, and as a result of that i think you will find "good" teams primarily making use of their solid hammer warriors in an attempt to score a fast teamwipe, and bad guilds with terrible frontliners still using dervishes.

Xenomortis · May 25, 2011, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

i think you will find "good" teams primarily making use of their solid hammer warriors in an attempt to score a fast teamwipe, and bad guilds with terrible frontliners still using dervishes.

So Dervs still dominate lower level play where they provide a really unpleasant experience for weaker monks and by extension, their team?
On the upshot, the removal of Heart of Fury forcing Pious Fury and the reversal of Aura of Thorns means Dervs should be a little less brain-dead to play...

Seraphim of Chaos · May 25, 2011, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Thank god for the Thorns update. Now just lower Mysticism armor.

Jeydra · May 25, 2011, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

dervishes are still extremely functional. Unless they get made entirely useless or just deleted, there is always going to be the risk of epic dervish abuse making a return in the near future.

Is that bad? We've had epic Warrior abuse for several years prior to the Dervish update, but I don't see anyone complaining.

In fact outside of the "it takes no skill" argument (which is very tenuous, in my opinion), I haven't seen any reason to continue nerfing Dervishes.

Artisan Archer · May 25, 2011, 03:21 PM // 15:21

The same avatar of baltazar bar still works (pious fury for heart of fury & chilling victory for twin moon sweep), but it's less effective and spammable. I haven't played against trip dervish since the update so I'm unsure wether it's still 'too good' or just another pressure build. I would think it's manageable now though.

kedde · May 25, 2011, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Is that bad? We've had epic Warrior abuse for several years prior to the Dervish update, but I don't see anyone complaining.

In fact outside of the "it takes no skill" argument (which is very tenuous, in my opinion), I haven't seen any reason to continue nerfing Dervishes.

Boring and one dimensional play requiring less thought and finesse isn't a pointer for you in a game that once marketed itself as being skillbased?

You have two contenders for the same role, one worked(relatively) fine for more than 5 years while the other had it's retardedly overpowered entrances once in a while.
Does the above appear to make a sudden change to the second and empirically proven to be bad choice a good idea? If so, you'll have to explain a rationale that goes beyond mere commercial issues with running a business.

Reverend Dr · May 25, 2011, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

People are actually running warriors again.

Not in HA.

The old derv bars are still there. There is a little more room for non-perfect play against dervs, but the disparity between skill require to derv against a monk and the skill required to monk against a derv is very much still in place.

I'm not really sure what the AoB change really did. At 3 seconds of burning then using more than one teardown skill in a row, the burnings overlapped. At 2 seconds they still do, so you lose burning damage at the end?. The 33%- > 25% means one extra auto-attack till adrenaline is charged and considering they were usually waiting on flash enchants rather than adrenaline, I'm not sure it really is a difference.

Why can't they be this cautious with buffs?

urania · May 25, 2011, 09:36 PM // 21:36

because their aim is to remain "busy" by constantly tweaking things after lol updates until GW2 comes out?
skill updates for the sake of stalling/testing things, i suppose.

Ariena Najea · May 25, 2011, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Not in HA.

The old derv bars are still there. There is a little more room for non-perfect play against dervs, but the disparity between skill require to derv against a monk and the skill required to monk against a derv is very much still in place.

I'm not really sure what the AoB change really did. At 3 seconds of burning then using more than one teardown skill in a row, the burnings overlapped. At 2 seconds they still do, so you lose burning damage at the end?. The 33%- > 25% means one extra auto-attack till adrenaline is charged and considering they were usually waiting on flash enchants rather than adrenaline, I'm not sure it really is a difference.

Why can't they be this cautious with buffs?

The most significant problem with Dervishes was the frequency of reliable cripple application in tandem with the near-permanent IMS effects. Dervishes are having a much more difficult time training targets, thus have been greatly weakened. They are still potent on spikes, but lack the knockdowns (apart from Reaper's Sweep...) that Warriors offer, which is huge.

floor · May 25, 2011, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Is that bad? We've had epic Warrior abuse for several years prior to the Dervish update, but I don't see anyone complaining.

In fact outside of the "it takes no skill" argument (which is very tenuous, in my opinion), I haven't seen any reason to continue nerfing Dervishes.

Hardly a comparison imo, bull strike, shock (used as a q knock), d chop all require skill to use. If your playing hammer you at least have to count recharge on stances. Not rocket science but its more than dervishes are required to think about.

Really the only time i can honestly say i have felt warriors were being "abused" was warriors endurance, which was quickly nerfed and eliminated from the game. Until such time as a warrior is able to simply spam his bar, i dont consider them abusable in any way.

Jeydra · May 26, 2011, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

Boring and one dimensional play requiring less thought and finesse isn't a pointer for you in a game that once marketed itself as being skillbased?

You have two contenders for the same role, one worked(relatively) fine for more than 5 years while the other had it's retardedly overpowered entrances once in a while.
Does the above appear to make a sudden change to the second and empirically proven to be bad choice a good idea? If so, you'll have to explain a rationale that goes beyond mere commercial issues with running a business.

As I said, outside of the "it takes no skill" argument (which is very tenuous, in my opinion), I haven't seen any reason to continue nerfing Dervishes - and it seems neither you nor floor can raise any arguments other than "it takes no skill".

No offense, but this reminds me suspiciously of this article.

Reverend Dr · May 26, 2011, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Lets talk about sub-top-tier play, the mid-tier. I mean it is hard enough to talk about an abstract, since there is no mid tier, but lets try.

In top-tier then monks can compete against dervishes and make them look out of place. That is why warriors will be in top tier. When we drop down to mid tier [or would hypothetically], right now its dervs against monks and a derv player that simply understands the priorities of skill use is going to stop a monk that has a very good, but not top-tier, understanding of and performance in his role. To say it is frustrating to the monks is beyond an understatement. This kind of balance is why there is no mid-tier. Dervs need to be on an effectiveness par with backlines that can also push 1,2,3,4,5 in order. (oh sorry, I put my flash enchantments on 5 and 6, my IAS on 7, so its 5,6,7,1,2,3)